This week: Jimmy Song, Bitcoin educator, developer and entrepreneur, Aleks Svetski, founder of Amber, an Aussie based Bitcoin-only company, Swan founder Cory Klippsten and Swan head of education, Brady Swenson, hosts.
This week: Jimmy Song, Bitcoin educator, developer and entrepreneur, Aleks Svetski, founder of Amber, an Aussie based Bitcoin-only company, Swan founder Cory Klippsten and Swan head of education, Brady Swenson, hosts.
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Brady Swenson (00:00:13):
Welcome to the Swan signal podcast. It production of Swan Bitcoin. The best way to accumulate Bitcoin using automatic recurring firstname.lastname@example.org. I'm Brady head of education at Swan on behalf of the entire Swan team. I'd like to welcome you back to the Swan signal podcast, Swan signal pairs up great Bitcoiners for compelling discussions that are unique on the Bitcoin content scene. Every week we broadcast one signal live on email@example.com slash Swan signal. Then we publish the audio here on this speech. This week, we're joined by Jimmy song, Bitcoin educator, developer and entrepreneur, Alex Wicki founder of Amber's an Aussie based Bitcoin only company as well as Swan founder. Corey. Klipstein glad you found your way here.
Brady Swenson (00:01:17):
All right. We are alive. Welcome everyone on Twitter, on YouTube on Facebook. Apparently Twitch's down right now, so you're not watching Nick. Welcome back to Swan signal. Live a weekly show that pairs up great Bitcoiners for compelling discussions. I'm Brady Swenson, head of education at Swan. Before we dive in a quick word about the service we provide here at Swan, we built the best way to accumulate Bitcoin with automatic recurring buys. It's a very simple setup. One, you connect your bank account to auto fund USD two. We automatically stack for you three. You can set up automatic withdrawals to your wallet. We do that all with very low fees for recurring purchases in the industry. Up to 80%, less than Coinbase, 50, 57% less than cash app. You can get firstname.lastname@example.org slash BTC pay, and you'll get $10. A Bitcoin drops to your account. After you start saving with Swan and the Bitcoin open source project.
Brady Swenson (00:02:15):
By that name, VTC pay will get 0.25% of every Swan plan purchase you make. For the next three years you can get in on this great referral program. Yourself can refer US-based customers from anywhere in the world and stack some stats while you do it. Get paid to mint, new Bitcoiners, check it email@example.com slash in list. All right, let's get to today's show. We have a great pair of Bitcoiners with us today. Again, Jimmy song, Bitcoin educator, developer, and entrepreneur. Welcome to Swan signal, Jimmy. Thank you for having me. It's a pleasure to be on and Alex [inaudible] founder of Amber swans. We man, down under welcome Alex. How's it going? Very good gentlemen. Thank you. Thanks for having me on them to get me on Jimmy. Absolutely man and Corey Clifton, founder of Swan. Glad to have you here as always. How's it going?
Speaker 2 (00:03:15):
You know, I usually chime in for like the last half hour, but I wasn't going to miss this one. I'm sure
Speaker 3 (00:03:20):
The whole gig got some stories to tell about both of these guys and I'm excited to have this conversation.
Brady Swenson (00:03:28):
Yeah. Corey came on this morning and Slack and was like, I'm hanging out the whole time. I'm going to dive in. I'm going to be more involved in this one. He's stoked. All right. Let's start by talking about building on Bitcoin. We'll start with you, Jimmy. You authored programming Bitcoin. Of course it teaches the basics of building on Bitcoin. And of course you also run programming blockchain, which is like a two day interactive seminar that gets into the details, live coding challenges, et cetera. So first what inspired you to begin building on Bitcoin and what in turn inspired you to start teaching?
Speaker 3 (00:04:04):
Yeah. Great questions. That, that the reason why I got into building Bitcoin was because, right, right around 2016, 2017, I realized like this was a Bitcoin was becoming a significant part of my network and I needed to protect it in whatever way I could. And the, you know, I've been a developer for 20 something years. So I was like, okay, I need to put my development skills into making this community better. And I was, I was looking into ways to contribute. And so on my contribution started in 2013 with various open source projects and so on, but it got to the point where it was just kinda like, okay, you know, I could contribute and I could probably get in maybe a hundred pull requests a year or something like that, but that's not going to scale very well. Cause I'm only one person. And at that point I was like, you know, the biggest thing missing in this industry are good developers or a path for developers to get into Bitcoin.
Speaker 3 (00:05:02):
So I created a program to do that. I taught it at a previous company that I used to be at Paxos. And I did it every time. There was like a new cohort of developers that I taught it like three times and I got really good feedback from them saying, okay, now Bitcoin makes sense. Cause before I didn't understand it at all, I thought I did, but I didn't know. And at that point I was like, okay, well, if these people find that useful, there's a good chance that other people might find it useful. So I started doing those seminars back in 2017 and yeah, I I've taught over 500 people, a lot of different types of people, people that I would never have guessed would want to learn this stuff like retired octogenarians, you know, a 14 year old high school figure skaters, just random people all over the place that, that want to learn this. But yeah, it's, it's been very rewarding. A lot of my students have gone on and done, for example, the chain code residency that have gone out to all of the different Bitcoin companies that are out there and, you know, they're contributing to the ecosystem. So in that, in that sense, I think I've at least gotten part way through to my mission, which is to create more developers for the ecosystem
Brady Swenson (00:06:22):
A little bit about, you know, maybe just a couple of samples of some stories about people who've gone through your course and ended up contributing.
Speaker 3 (00:06:31):
Yeah. So I think Federico will fall. He's a, he's now being sponsored, I think by okay. Coin to contribute to Bitcoin core. He, he, he took, he went on, she took my course. Then he went on to the chain code residency. That seems to be a comment that for some reason there's a bunch of other people that have done that. But yeah, he he's now sponsored and he he's, he's doing a lot of coding, you know, for Bitcoin core balancing Wallace. She wanted to, she actually won a scholarship and she ended up going to lightning labs. She's now at square working on the rust lightning implementation. So she she's doing pretty well. You know, Carl dong, he, he was at Blockstream when he took my course. And when I asked him why he was taking my courses from Blockstream, he was like, well, I want to understand what the hell Peter will say whenever he talks to me. Cause I don't know if there's that, what the hell he's saying? So he took that course. Then, then he went on to chaincode labs and he's done that Jonas, I forget his last name, but he, he, he, he set the rector for the chaincode labs residency. He took my course a while back and he, he now arranges the curriculum for the chin code residency and so on. But, but yeah, I mean, there there's ton more people. Those are just the ones that I can think of off the top.
Brady Swenson (00:08:00):
That's that's a legacy already and you know, you're just getting started, man. All right, Alex, you're up, you know, you're not a technical person in the way that Ginny is, but you're building on Bitcoin in a different way. You're building from the business side of things. So I'll ask you the same question. What inspired you to build, you know, a business on Bitcoin and why in particular, a recurring buys platform, Different story, I guess
Speaker 3 (00:08:31):
Parallels right. Is I fell down the rabbit hole a bit later than the Jimmy did. So 2016 sort of time. And, and I, the more I fell down, the more I basically pissed everyone else around me that I knew with, you know, braiding them, telling them to buy some. And I just kept
Speaker 4 (00:08:56):
Getting the, the usual stop annoying me. You know, I don't know where to buy it, how to buy it, how much to buy to volatile. You need the usual, the usual, you know what we call in sales next? You know, the usual opposite Jesus, what's the word my brain's fried. I've been doing too many podcasts today. Isn't toxic, toxic usual objections. That's the word I'm looking for. The usual objections that people give you for, you know, button up buying Bitcoin. And I mean, at the time, you know, you, the status quo in Australia was that, you know, you use Coinbase or, you know, there was primarily the shitcoin casino called queen spot and PSMA, let us swear on here. I just did. But anyway, so yeah, so I thought, man, there has to be an easier way. And I decided to, to look at buildings.
Speaker 4 (00:09:53):
So the first iteration of Amber was actually a rounding up your spare change into Bitcoin. So that was the original version. And the idea was that you could link your bank account, go buy a coffee for $4 50 or whatever. And you know, the roundups at the nearest dollar amount and stack that. But you know, what, what we found was, you know, we spent all this time and energy building this tech and all this crap, and we realized that, you know, with the legacy financial system, the amount of intrusive things you would need to do to look at somebody's payment history, and everything's actually work out that kind of stuff. We, we ended up dunking that. And then we went with a much smoother DCA where you sit in and out and the frequency and the idea has always been like, you know, I think it's been interesting having discussions with, you know, potential investors and this and that, you know, we're particularly in 2018 when we were first raising money, you know, we raised our first chunk of money, right.
Speaker 4 (00:10:52):
In the, in the death throes of the bear market where, you know, Bitcoin really sort of fell from 10 grand down to three grand and, you know, people were losing their minds and, you know, they were wondering why we weren't, you know, like everyone used to look at me, like I had three heads. They're like, what do you mean you're not doing a coin, you know, or what, what do you mean? You're not, you know, why is this not a blockchain project? And I was like, you know, I just felt like such a, such a fish out of water. I remember going to these capital-raising expos and, you know, getting on stage and talking about how ICO is and scams and, and, you know, people would boom me off the stage and, you know, the next year I got invited back to those conferences, you know, with the apologies saying, Oh, you know, you are you're right.
Speaker 4 (00:11:38):
And, you know, the Mo for me, always with Amber was just to specifically help people accumulate Bitcoin and none of the, none of the shit coiner and retainer that sort of went around with that. And, and I'm to say that, you know, here we are, I mean, it's been over two years since the inception of the idea, and I kind of see 2008, 18 as a ride off here because that's the year we were fucking around with all the little roundups and stuff. So really we've only been in market for about a year and a bit, but, you know, again, the, the essence was there from the beginning. So two years later, you know, it's, I'm really happy to see like a resurgence of Bitcoin only companies, you know, with you guys, you know, river with, you know, with all sorts of, you know, strong, solid businesses now that are, that are waving the Bitcoin flag and, and, and all at the same time, you know, you've got the backdrop of, you know, people at Coinbase who continue to hire, you know, NSA operatives, you know, to, to put it lightly. And I'm an ad shitcoin, so it's, it's a, it's a beautiful thing. So I'm glad we, we stuck to our guns. And I think it's Testament to sort of understanding the essence of why Bitcoin exists in the first place, as opposed to just going out and building the next shiny checkpoint. So, yeah.
Speaker 3 (00:13:04):
Yeah. I want to take that opportunity to dunk on some of these, all the old school companies, because they piss me off. I mean like companies like Coinbase and
Speaker 4 (00:13:17):
Speaker 3 (00:13:18):
So many of these others, especially like the Silicon Valley types, Corey, you, you would know a lot more
Speaker 4 (00:13:24):
Speaker 3 (00:13:26):
Amazing to me. How many of them just refuse to
Speaker 4 (00:13:29):
Bitcoin's value? Prop are always a, I dunno, talking their book and trying to, you know, encourage people to buy more IKOS or something. Why what's up with that? Well, there's definitely an incentive problem there, and I think that's super clear, right? Like it's, once you get investors involved or you get greedy or, you know, there, there can be, there can be a lot of reasons that a company starts to do things that aren't necessarily in the best interests of the world, themselves, even their customers. I mean, I, haven't heard Google saying don't be evil for, you know, 10 years now. Cause it's just like, would be laughed at right. Like can't really carry that flag anymore.
Speaker 4 (00:14:11):
So one of the things that happens is, you know, in a, in a cyclical business, which Bitcoin ended up being more cyclical than anyone probably could have forecast, you know, with off of one data point, any company that raised money in 2013, or again in 2017, 2018, whatever ended up getting really bloated. And then because it's transactional revenue and it's not repeating, it's not recurring revenue. You don't have, you know, SAS customers or subscribers, right. Then you end up, you know, essentially like really bloated and you've got to start firing people basically and cutting offices and all of that, unless you go hard at cryptos or blockchain, sprinkles and blockchain on it, bro. And so that's
Speaker 2 (00:14:52):
What I think you've seen people do. It's some of it is a willful ignorance. Some of it is actual ignorance and some of it is just incentives. And some of it is, you know, just what you see with any, any company that's just trying to stay alive. And, you know, it takes a contract that's like unsavory instead of cutting offices, because it's not even necessarily, it's not even necessarily that you would be cutting those people. It's also like if you start to shrink, when you're on a VC growth train, you don't raise that next round and you're DLA, like you're just, it's done, it's over. Right. So growth at all costs basically. And I think that's, that's what you see happening with these companies. So, you know, that's been one of the, I mean, that, that is the driving factor behind the two major strategic decisions that we've taken at Swan.
Speaker 2 (00:15:40):
One is to focus exclusively on recurring purchases. And we don't even count a nonrecurring revenue in our revenue column. It's like, it's nice, that's cool. We'll throw some marketing dollars, you know, use that for marketing dollars, but we don't use it in our forecasts. And we don't consider ourselves like further on the path toward break even unless it's prepaid annual revenue. And the second thing is we've made a conscious decision not to take any fund money. So all a hundred percent angel funded, and we're going to try to do that forever so that we never have someone with, with a fiduciary responsibility to their LPs to try to like flatten the J curve and their fund and how it have all these messed up incentives that happen. And that's not that I wouldn't take venture capital. I mean, I, as you know, I worked in that industry for seven years, post Google and raise over a quarter billion dollars for 30, 30 rounds and 20 companies, you know, so I'm very familiar with, with that.
Speaker 2 (00:16:34):
And there are businesses that it's great for. I don't think it's very good for Bitcoin unless you have, you know, and you are starting to see, you know, a handful of funds that will just be there for the long haul and are doing it, you know, really for the, for the love of Bitcoin. And, you know, it's a really short list I am seeing, you know, it seems like, Oh, leg and folder ventures are very much down for the cause. And we'll be there for a long time, however many cycles it takes for big wind startups to deliver. But really that's, it, there's one starting down in Austin that looks like it'll have 20 or 30 mil to put to work, but they haven't announced yet. And, and that's pretty much it in our tiny little, you know, Angela syndicate for Bitcoin or ventures and everybody else might be investing in some, you know, Bitcoin startups, but they are trying to make money off of, you know, fees and carry. And that just by definitions up sprinkling some blockchain on it saying like, Hey, let's, let's widen the conversation. Hey, I, I don't know who's gonna win. Like, you know, whatever, you know, it's just, you, can't, you end up getting, you know, losing your job and getting divorced and having a horrible life if you've put your eggs in that basket. And you're only betting on Bitcoin startups this early in the game,
Speaker 4 (00:17:50):
Alex, how did you feel about taking some of that VC money? Hmm. Well, yeah, I, I agree with them with everything that Corey just said, but, but I, I, I still think, I don't know what it's been about the way I've approached it. Cause we we've taken both angel money and just recently we took a little bit of VC money and, you know, I mean, I'll always very deliberate about, you know, the VC money that I took those. So, so, you know, they're, they're Bitcoin aligned. So it's, it's, I mean, it's, it's pump, right? So, you know, pumped and microscope pop some money in via the Morgan Creek. So, you know, they're, they're, they're relatively, you know, strongly aligned with what we're doing, but I think the way I've managed, but the investors and the team and everything is by, I hate this word or this idea of thought leader.
Speaker 4 (00:18:49):
But I think just, you know, understanding Bitcoin and just being, being almost the intolerant CEO or the intolerant visionary, kind of, I'm not going to compare myself to Steve jobs here, but you know, just being the person who knows why you're doing, why you're doing what, why you're doing what you're doing. So I think that's, that's been a differentiating factor. So, so when I hear people use the usual excuses of [inaudible], but you know, we didn't have a choice, you know, we had to take money in or this and that and blah, blah, blah. You know, I kind of say, look, I had the same problems. Like we, you know, we came really, really, really, really, really close in 2018, not having anything left, we're operating on fumes. And I still didn't deviate. Like I got offered money from, from dash people from black queen people from all sorts of people's fucking listings.
Speaker 4 (00:19:44):
And, you know, it got really, really tempting. We got close to thinking about doing that. We sat down, I remember sitting down in the room and I just, I don't know, I got angry about it, this and that. And I just said, fuck it. I'm not going to give up. I'm just going to keep finding a way to do this. And we managed to pull through now, you know, that that may not be, that might be, we might just be an anomaly. I don't know. But, but I, you know, the fact that now that's kind of become a stronger trend and we're seeing, you know, more people get behind the quinone companies. I think that's, that's now going to turn into an advantage. So, and, and, you know, people like, I think, you know, businesses like Amber, like Swan, et cetera, we've sort of, we've pioneered that and now there's no longer an excuse for somebody to say, well, you know, in order to exist, we have to list shit coins or in order to exist, we have to make up a fraudulent blockchain, you know, you know, narratives to justify why we need to gain money.
Speaker 4 (00:20:45):
Cause you know, now there is examples companies who
Brady Swenson (00:20:48):
Have managed to exist and not by no means is Amber some successful company yet, like we're still a startup, we're still young, we're still growing. But if we can pull this off, you know, we've successfully built a Bitcoin only company, you know, during one of the harshest periods possible, which I think, you know, is, you know, if anything, testaments, perseverance, and grit. So I think that's important to, to have when building something in this space, the hard part is that you kind of have to build during the bear cycle because there's such a crush during the bull cycle, but it's hard to raise money and, and kind of weather the bear cycle. You never know exactly how long it's going to be, but you have to be able to like stay lean until you can get through it. And you know, we're all hoping for, for the next cycle to start.
Brady Swenson (00:21:38):
Let's actually, let's dive in a little bit more into this Bitcoin only industry, the birth of this Bitcoin on the industry, you know, like you said, we have, we have river, we have Casa and Unchained on the custody front Swan, of course, Amber and a slew of other Bitcoin only like recurring purchase companies all over the world. I know fryer has, is, you know, they're super excited about that development and he's been, you know, documenting it thoroughly on, on Twitter as it's proceeded. So let's start with you, Jimmy, you know, how do you see the emergence of Bitcoin only companies playing out over the next few years and have we put to rest the quote unquote, need to peddle shit coins to establish a viable longterm business?
Speaker 3 (00:22:21):
Yeah, it's interesting. Cause it really reminds me of like the search engine Wars in the nineties. I don't know if you guys were around back then, but back then there were tons of search engines, you know, all of this Infoseek and Lycos and Yahoo and all of these. And, and the thing about all of them was that they all sort of sold out, right? Like they, they started charging companies to be the first listing for certain keywords and things like that. Instead of doing something objective, Google actually came in fairly late into the game. And the thing, the reason why they won was that they were actually the most subjective they didn't sell out. And what this whole discussion reminds me of is that, you know, companies like Coinbase they're, they're the, you know, light coasts or off the B style, 1997 or something like that. I mean, it works until it doesn't until like consumers get smarter about what the hell's going on. And at that point you can, you know, you can actually like get an advantage by being more honest, of course, Google has gotten more evil since then, as Corey already said, but that's that, that is what this whole Bitcoin only thing reminds me. There's another angle there. And I'll use any of these big tech companies or, you know, it basically is, there are a lot of people that got in early
Speaker 2 (00:23:46):
And were employees of early companies or even started companies that were sort of first to market in a space and they experience a great wealth creation and success and a rise in stature. But once the company is a little bit bigger and CA can have their pick of the litter and can hire, you know, brilliant people from all over the world, into these roles, what you find. And you know, this, this sort of change over at Google was probably in the sort of like 2008, 2009 timeframe. And, you know, that's when they really started to hit hyper-growth as far as, as headcount headcount goes. And what you could kind of see is just like getting rid of all of the dead wood of the people that were just lucky to be there. And I think that's what you see, like, you know, you listen to interviews and read things that Brian Armstrong writes and it's like, you know, that's a great idea to start an easier way to buy a Bitcoin when everybody was doing Mt.
Speaker 2 (00:24:44):
Gox, and he was in San Francisco, you fucking grew up in Palo Alto or San Jose or whatever you had like good enough connections to like get some people to work on it with them and raise some venture money and like build this thing. But, you know, if there were four or five other really strong, successful founders that started at the same time, like if it had caught fire and been like, Oh, that's a hot space. And you know, you started Uber, we're starting Lyft. There's no fucking way that Brian and Coinbase win. If there were some other good founders starting at the same time. So I don't see that as like some sort of unassailable fortress of awesome in any way, shape or form, because you know, you, the shit rolls downhill and you take your cues from the top. You know, he doesn't understand that the most simple, most obvious thing in the world today.
Speaker 2 (00:25:32):
And he hires people that, you know, that agree with him and or that will like let him have his way. And you know, they keep on doing horrible things and hiring horrible people that do horrible things. And, you know, I don't see that changing anytime soon. So, you know, VCs can keep on throwing tons of money at it and maybe they build up a big kitty in this next bull run. You know, maybe it's just achieved escape velocity, but what it probably ends up doing is just like selling themselves to JP Morgan or something like that is not going to be the crypto financial institution to end all institutions in five, 10 years.
Speaker 3 (00:26:04):
It's hilarious because at least from what I've heard, a lot of their employees at Coinbase are walking around, like they're the next Facebook or Google and, and the, and the thing is like, they're, they don't like, they're kind of like what you're saying, Corey they're there. They're not that talented. And they, they think that they're, they're, they're this hot stuff because they happened to be at the right place at the right time for a small amount of time. But I mean, we're, we're dunking our Coinbase here, but for me, the bigger company or another company that's much worse as blockchain, bad info, blockchain.com or whatever they've done. Absolutely nothing,
Speaker 4 (00:26:44):
Nothing for like six years. Like they only upgraded to HD wallets more like three years ago or something it's, it's insane to me that they are still alive, even because they, I mean, they they're supporting Bitcoin cash. They support all of these things. They're still not supporting sideway. It's insane to me that that's a company that's still around there. That kind of like, I dunno if like go.com the search engine was still around. Absolutely nothing. Alright, nothing. This is good stuff. Does anybody else have any more fire to drop on this? I don't want to move away too soon, Alex. I know you've got something stored up.
Speaker 4 (00:27:34):
There's plenty of that. Look there is, there is. I mean, the there's, I don't know, I don't, I don't have any more comments cause all I'm going to be doing is parroting. What, what Corey and Jimmy said at this point, I think that there's enough, there's enough to do in and around Bitcoin. And the fact that, you know, there's companies that are well capitalized that are still fucking around with things that don't make sense should good enough to anybody. That's a consumer of these products to question the ethics of the company. And I think the more, the more people support businesses that, you know, that have, you know, that, that are consistent with the, with the, with their message division their mission and have some form of integrity around what they're doing. You know, the, the more we're going to support the right teams and people in this space.
Speaker 4 (00:28:36):
So, you know, if anyone's listening to this and, you know, wanting to sort of know what I think about that, that's really what I think it's like, you know, if you're a Bitcoin stop using fucking finance stop using, you know, cracking or fucking Coinbase or whatever other shitcoin casino you're using, put your money where your mouth is and back the Bitcoin company, simple as that, like that that's really what needs to happen here. And yeah, you know, at some point, you know, you might save $5 in fees every month by using finance, but it gives a shit fucking grow up and like, you know, get behind the people who are, who are helping build the infrastructure around Bitcoin list. You want to remain in shitcoin purgatory forum for the rest of your life. And, you know, sitting there gambling your gambling and fortune away and, you know, trying to, you know, quote unquote, make more BTC wallet, trademark, UltiPro just shut the fuck up and stacked assets. You know, here's one just
Speaker 2 (00:29:43):
Addendum to that. I think it's really important for people. I mean, we're talking to the core Bitcoin audience on a show like this, right? It's just really important to think about what you're recommending to other people. So if you've been in Bitcoin for six, seven years and you want to go and place a large buy, cause you just had some, you know, financial event and you want to go buy 250 grand worth of Bitcoin or something by all means go to an OCT that OTC desk that deals in shit coins or go to whatever exchange, you know, has the cheapest price for you, whatever, do a, you know, make her order and get it for 25 bips or 15 BEPS or whatever. That's totally fine. Whatever do not recommend those shitcoin exchanges to people who are new to the space. You can save them years and marriages, et cetera, just getting them to go to sites that only have Bitcoin on them that explain very clearly get them involved in a community to get them, you know, Amber membership or, you know, it sounds like better might be coming back to Europe, you know, get them involved in Swan in the U S or, or a river or a Bitcoin and in Canada, and let them become part of like a site in a community and a regular relationship where they're being talked to about Bitcoin and make sure they get onboarded into this space, through the, through the right lens, including a little bit of sprinkling of toxicity.
Speaker 2 (00:31:06):
You know, as a, you know, if you got two people in one, you know, really, really likes the other person or pretends to. And the second person is looking askance at the first one and being like that, dude's full of shit. You know, 95%, this is a heuristic, but 95% of the time, the, the skeptical one is telling the truth.
Speaker 2 (00:31:28):
I experienced this by the way, I'll just get into a quick anecdote. I experienced this because with Jimmy actually at my very first ever blockchain conference in it's probably like October of 2017 and I'd been reading up on Bitcoin. I wasn't not working in the space yet. It was the first time I was going to anything. I, I finally bought Bitcoin and started reading up in like may of 17. So I think it was like October and there's this like, Rawkus crazy, you know, booth girl just bought this ICO, raising bullshit. You know, Miszewski ski lying from the stage, you know, et cetera in Santa Monica. And like, Jimmy's hanging out with a couple people, like not participating he's out on the lawn, like in front of the conference, just like, you know, cowboy boots and jeans and just kinda like looking askance at everybody, including me when I sat down. But, you know, he dropped some Bitcoin knowledge on me. It was like, you know, be a little careful. And I started watching Jimmy song videos and kinda like it was, it was definitely the next leg up for me at the time. And it was because he didn't want to play nice with all the assholes. So don't play nice with shit corners. There's no reason to, don't try to widen the conversation. Rebel.
Brady Swenson (00:32:42):
Why don't you tell the truth and do right by,
Speaker 3 (00:32:45):
You know, showing shit coins
Brady Swenson (00:32:46):
In front of your real vision audience. Yeah. We know what you're really trying to do role. I, when I came in to the space for three or four months, I was trying to figure out what was going on. Right. Like everybody else who's new. And I was susceptible, susceptible to the toxicity fund. Right. I was just like, what the heck are all these guys doing? Just like, you know, calling these people out and being just assholes to these people, you know, that's the way I perceived anyway. And I was like, you know, just left a bad taste in my mouth, the Bitcoiners. So it's a real thing, but I very quickly realized once I got somewhat wrecked that this is, there's so much at stake here, there's too much at stake here. Right. It's not just money and people's livelihoods, but it's also, like Corey said, like literally marriages, this can be, you know, money is, is a very divisive thing in a marriage relationships.
Brady Swenson (00:33:33):
And you know, you lose a bunch of it. That's going to put a lot of strain on relationships. So this is like real life, right? This is people. I mean, I wouldn't even put it put past to say like, you know, the people are just, I don't know, depressed, like there's this affects people. Right. And we're going to get into that in just a minute, but there's a lot at stake. Here's the point? And it's warranted, right? Some of this toxicity towards these scammers is warranted it's Bitcoin's immune system and we just can't have, you have zero tolerance for this thing. And I think it's all good, you know, like something that we need for sure. And that I support participating at this point.
Speaker 3 (00:34:05):
Yeah. It's interesting because what you guys are saying about toxicity and all of this, it really does make the difference. Whether or not you're like, sort of nice to those people or not in a sense, I think Alice could speak better about this, but, but basically if you're, if you want to get the sale, you, you have to get them to like you instantly, right? Like it's, it's important to make that first initial impression, but Bitcoin isn't like sort of like an instant sell kind of thing. It's not, it's not an impulse decision. It's, it's a, it's a much longer term decision. And, and for a lot of Chicagoans, of course, they want to get the sale, get people to participate in their ICO or their token generation event. And then, and then, you know, kick off with the money. But when, when you're selling Bitcoin, you, you don't want that. You don't want to leave that impression. So I think in that sense, like that toxicity or that like sort of almost off putting this, right, like not having the traditional sales model of, Hey, you know what? You need to go buy this and we'll be all nice to you. I think that's actually more effective for the sort of longterm vision, a big point. It helps people recognize it.
Brady Swenson (00:35:24):
Great love that point. I actually love that point. That reminds me of, of how I'm gonna use a really funny analogy here. I dunno what comes to mind, but when
Speaker 4 (00:35:38):
You're, when you're trying to, how do I put this mildly, get getting a girl's pants, you, one of the things you want to do is you want to make her earn it. So can we say the parallel here is there's
Speaker 3 (00:35:59):
Where are we getting a lesson and pick up artistry? Is that what you're doing?
Speaker 4 (00:36:10):
There's an ID called, you know, you are the prize, which is, you know, that there's a parallel here across everything in life. Is that anything that's worth having is worth? And that's where the, you know, your time, you know, seeing whether it's a business capacity, whether it's as a speaker, whether it's as a, whether it's as a leader, you know, whether you're trying to pick up chicks, you know, even in your relationship, you know, you, you need to be, you know, the person on the other side of the equation, that's worth having that time. And, and, and always being a pleaser, always bending the knee, always trying to do a quick sale and all that sort of stuff. Doesn't imply, you know, the, it doesn't imply that someone needs to invest some time to sort of dig through, you know, the supposedly, you know, toxicity.
Speaker 4 (00:36:57):
So it's like you, cause the world is a wash with people who are desperately trying to vie for your attention and Bitcoin thing by nature, contrarian. Like, you know, you have this community that doesn't give a shit about, you know, begging for your attention, you know, w we're more about being principled and saying things as it is. And then the onus is on you coming into this space. Yes, we do our best to make it accessible and all of this sort of stuff, but we're not going to deviate the message to sugar coat shit, you know, so that it sounds nicer. So it's kind of like, you know, people almost need to own their stripes to come into the community. So anyway, self qualifying, the sales lead,
Speaker 3 (00:37:40):
And it's, it's, it's a lot easier to sell.
Speaker 4 (00:37:43):
That's right. That's right. That's right. So, anyway, so I'm going to do a quick aside here because when we get out of lockdown and there are crowds again, we actually are planning to shoot a lot of Bitcoin pickup down in breakfast neighborhood in Venice, like actually having Bitcoiners go and try to like accost people on the street and pitch them Bitcoin on camera. And it's a hundred percent like I like the sunset strip 15 years ago with all those creepy pickup artists. That's the whole plan, Jimmy, by the way, I think your flair, I think that's what they call it. Right? Flare plus lifts in the boots, like solid, solid pickup artists back in the day.
Speaker 3 (00:38:30):
Yeah. That, that would have been interesting. I've been married for a long time though. So that's that part of my life is way behind
Speaker 2 (00:38:39):
Alex's wing man though, you know, could have done some, some accomplishment intros or something would be great. Yeah. I don't have it here. It is. Here it is.
Speaker 3 (00:38:48):
Is totally like natural flavor.
Speaker 2 (00:38:50):
Now you want diversity, you want diversity in a crew. That's ideal cast a wider net,
Speaker 3 (00:39:01):
But it is true. I like a lot of these like shit. Like it's crazy to me that people complain about how like, Oh, this community isn't nice to me. Therefore, I'm not going to buy this quiet. Like it says, what do you make your financial decision based on like, well, you know, who's nice to you, you do that. You're going to get wrecked guarantee. You make your financial decisions based on like your longterm goals and what, what you think will happen based on objective facts instead of like subjective feelings. It's crazy to me that that's how people are thinking.
Speaker 2 (00:39:33):
Yeah, I think, yeah. It's I just kept on thinking of like Bitcoin versus Ethereum and like Bitcoin is, and you have to come in and you have to learn about what it is and adjust your life and your thinking to fit that reality. And like a, is this like cuddly, fuzzy, warm, you know, you can be whatever you want to be invited by the way, like a Syrian can be anything that you want it to be. You know, it's just this like malleable, impressionable, immature uninformed, you know, that's who it's for is for people that just want to impress upon it, whatever they want their hopes and dreams to be in some way. So I don't know. It's just a it's super beta kind of super alpha.
Speaker 3 (00:40:14):
Yeah. It feels to me like, it's kind of like the loss of, right. Like they're, they're their children's philosophies and they're adults. So adult philosophies have like actual tenants, actual principals, actual something that you believe in children's philosophies are malleable and it fits whatever situation it's a rationalization engine for anything that you want to do or believe Ethereum feels much more and really all shit coins are in that realm of, okay, it's going to be whatever I want it to be, because this is, you know, it's going to let me do whatever it is that I want to do. Whereas, you know, Bitcoin is much more principled, right? Like that. And this is something, this is a word that's come up over and over again, it's, it's actually got tenants. It's got backs. It's got, you know, an, almost a morality around it that none of these others have. It's like, I still remember, like back in 2017, you know, you go to a meetup that isn't Bitcoin only, and you get passed around white papers. Like there were scripts that are Hollywood movies, right? Like, everyone's like, Hey, take a look at my white paper. And you know, I then like next week they come back, I raised $10 million. I like that. That's the kind of like world where you don't
Speaker 2 (00:41:34):
Have any principles, you don't have any more reality. And you're, you're, you're you just end up doing whatever gets you that money. And this is how you end up selling your soul. Whereas with Bitcoin, it's like, like you stay principle, but man, is it hard to hold off to that when there's like millions of dollars? Just like, like just, I I'm sure you guys have, have experienced this where like people are offering you a lot of money to endorse their product. It's just that you have to give it off yourself. So I I'm going to, I'm going to chime in here. This is specifically for Nate in the chat about 10 years ago, maybe longer before I met my wife, I was visiting friends in Los Angeles and we were just hanging out at Hollywood club and randomly the guy next to us was this bald guy.
Speaker 2 (00:42:24):
And he was really friendly and it ended up being a guy named Neil Strauss and like the game guy. Yeah. So, and I had totally read the book in like 2006 or something. I thought it was hilariously entertaining and I was, you know, whatever. Well, on my way to, I was, I was past the age where you kind of like gamified pickup, I guess, but I found it super entertaining to give a lexicon to all of that. So we kinda like stayed in touch here and there. And when I moved to LA, he randomly was like running around in shitcoin circles. When I got involved in Bitcoin and all that, you know, shitcoin madness down here with all the people that made a bunch of money on EOS before I found maximalism. And anyway, we kinda like stayed in touch. So I actually grabbed like 45 minutes with them maybe a month ago, just to talk about Bitcoin and community and how to start a call, all those kinds of things and just kinda like tested a bunch of my ideas with them. So, yeah, I don't think it's actually all that far off in some ways I think Alex is like totally spot on. And, and Nate, yeah. Now you have to increase your weekly Swan by, by 50% because I had talked about Neil Strauss per request.
Brady Swenson (00:43:39):
I did, I did not think that this was going to be the route that we would take to get to this conversation. I actually had the question, you know, what does Bitcoin do to change you as a person lower, no lower time preference, et cetera. You know, the morality of Bitcoin, how it's going to change society as it sort of changes individuals collectively, et cetera. But we got there, man. Jimmy got there. I appreciate you guys coming around. That was, that was a lot of fun. I mean,
Speaker 2 (00:44:07):
It's interesting because there is a parallel here and a, and I, you know, I, I mean, I think we could all say we're all familiar with that game literature and all that stuff. And basic tenants, all that alphabet, whatever. And the thing that I've noticed about the pickup quote unquote industry is that it's evolved, right? Like it used to be, you know, dress up into right flare and, you know, say
Speaker 3 (00:44:32):
This line, you know, did you see the fight outside or something like that, it's evolved to something else. And, and, you know, what's, what's that book, the subtle art of not giving a fuck, right? Like that, that is written by a guy that was a pickup artist. And what I've noticed about that book. And when I read it, I was like, Oh my God, this is, this is basically stoicism for the modern age. And, and he, he basically lays out all of this stoic tenets and a more entertaining way with a lot of cursing, but that's essentially what he does. And that's what game has sort of evolved into is it's, it's more philosophical, it's a lot more principled and it's, it's a lot more about what makes you a better person. And, and this is what I've heard from a lot of guys that have gone through that like sort of pickup phase in their life is that they do come out of it sort of with actual principles, with real moral values and things like that.
Speaker 3 (00:45:26):
And I, and a similar thing I think is happening in the Bitcoin space as well, right? Like you, you start off wanting the, you know, land bows and girls and all that stuff. But as you learn about it, as you lower your time preference, it becomes a lot more about improving yourself, improving your life, leaving a legacy, doing something that helps the world, how civilization helps everything grow. And I think that's, that's a real thing is that it starts off selfishly, but it becomes a lot more, a lot less about you and a lot more about, you know, what you can contribute.
Brady Swenson (00:46:09):
All right, guys, I love that conversation. Thank you, Jimmy, for wrapping that up. That was fantastic. All right. I have a question from the telegram. This is going to switch directions back to Bitcoin, a little bit more serious topic, but I'm sure we can find a way to inject the fun again. So, you know, the ability to remain decentralized through, you know, accessibility to running a node is as aggressively defended as the 21 million cap by Bitcoiners, we have about 10 K public nodes, publicly available nodes, about 50 K you know, private nodes that are running out there. There's a ton of room for more nodes to be run. We have plenty of, you know, it's very accessible all around the world. Pretty much. There's a ton of room. We only have 60,000 nodes running essentially. So Robin, the telegram group wants to know how do we frame the importance of running a node to new Bitcoiners. And, you know, for that matter existing Bitcoiners, we, you know, need to improve decentralization. And, and how do we frame that? So we can inspire people to run notes. I'll start with Alex, come on. I'm going to go to, I'm going to go to Jimmy, but I need, I need to get Alex, you know, sitting forward a little bit, let me, I'm
Speaker 4 (00:47:30):
Lean in how to answer this question. I think as, as I was listening to you to ask it all, I was kinda thinking, you know, I, I think there's a, there's a silver bullet fallacy. I'm, I'm making this terminology up as I go, is this idea that there's a single solution for, for any of these problems. And I think the reality in the real world at least is that complex problems involve led bullet solutions, which is multiple shots, you know, multiple things happening at once. So, you know, one example is, you know, if we want to help proliferate the number of nodes that are running, I think there's multiple things that need to happen. Number one is, you know, we need to allow for technology itself to get better. You know, I kind of envisioned down the track and again, I'm not technical enough to know whether this is possible or not, but the, the idea that every single wallet that's running, whether on a phone or something like that is a node in and of itself as a bandwidth gets foster.
Speaker 4 (00:48:40):
And as, you know, storage gets more ubiquitous, et cetera, et cetera. And this is why keeping, you know, blocks small and the, you know, the Bitcoin blockchain itself as nimble as possible is, is, you know, extraordinarily important as a way forward when it comes to optimization. And then, you know, on the flip side, you've got the continual education and, you know, I wrote a piece alongside Phil Geiger from unchains called the journey of the Bitcoin or, and what we, what we discussed in there was how, you know, a product like Amber, you know, for that amount of Swan, you know, we kind of, we act as the first, you know, the, the gateway drug almost for people to get into the space. And, you know, w we, you know, our job is not to, you know, cause I always get asked by people, Oh, when's, Amber's gonna, you know, release a self custody wallet.
Speaker 4 (00:49:32):
And I'm like, well, fuck that. That's not what we're going to do. Cause that's not our jam. You know, like if we try to do every single part of, you know, the, the Bitcoin potential Bitcoin product offering, you know, we're going to be way too bloated, number one, it's impossible. But number two, I think it's just a deranged method of thinking when delivering a product or service, you know, you pick your component on that journey and you, you know, you do that well. And then you've got, you know, Unchained on the other side, who's, you know, for a more advanced Bitcoin wants to do some multisectoral collaborative custody, et cetera, and, and understands how to do that. And, you know, by working together, we're able to sort of abstract the benefits of collaborative custody for Amber users, by us performing the function of storing their funds in collaborative custody.
Speaker 4 (00:50:18):
So that, you know, those users who are new to Bitcoin, who don't understand, you know, keys and all this sort of stuff, they, you know, they can enter. And as they, as we educate them through an educational content, this and that, you know, we take them to the first step of, Hey, set up your own wallet, you know, custody or in case and withdrawal. And then as, as we sort of start to build, you know, those two steps, which is buy some Bitcoin and then store your own Bitcoin, then the next bit of the journey is then to educate them on the importance of running. And there are no, but I think this journey, you know, needs to take steps and people need to, to go through personal evolutions along that journey. There's no way we're going to get people to run nodes from day one. I just don't think that's going to happen unless we get to the point where it becomes completely ubiquitous, where you don't even know that you're running a fucking mode, you just are because it's on your phone. And I think that whilst that is happening, because, you know, we will inevitably arrive at a point where that is the case, you know, over the next two, three, five, 10 years, you know, we've got to take people through these evolutions of their, of their understanding of the com. So that's kind of the best way I can.
Speaker 4 (00:51:33):
And so that, I think, and then, you know, I guess to tie off that point is ensuring that, that, you know, coming back to the whole toxic white blood cells slash, you know, immovable minority that, you know, will not deviate from the important, the important principles of Bitcoin, which is, you know, self sovereignty running around and et cetera, as long as that cohort exists in the middle, as long as the center is strong, there will always be a grounding for the rest of the community to sort of hold onto it to point to which can then permeate outwards. And that's the importance of, you know, people that, you know, run their own notes, et cetera, to, to, to maintain that, that philosophy. So, yeah, I just think that's gonna, that's gonna grow and it's gonna, I think it's not a huge issue, you know, we'd just all have to do our part.
Speaker 2 (00:52:25):
I hear that. I hear that I'm going to just chime in and just give a shout out to, to the plebs there, because there have been some, some broad conversations on Twitter the last few days about, you know, what exactly is toxicity and how much toxicity is too much, et cetera, et cetera. And, and I don't think it matters. What matters is that the plebs exists, if you don't know what, what toxic flubs are, what Bitcoin clubs are, ask a friend who's in Bitcoin and, and check it out. But, you know, they're, they're kind of the ones that are policing, shitcoin Ari and things that are bad for Bitcoin, and they're not always right. And you know, they're not always nice, but it's important to have, you know, that, that immune system, those white blood cells essentially going and attacking anything. And it's okay if they get some false positives sometimes.
Speaker 2 (00:53:16):
And if they attack somebody that, you know, cause it's, it's fine. If your heart is good and you're doing the right thing for Bitcoin or whatever, you can easily defend yourself and there can even be disagreements and you can take different views on things and that's totally fine. But those constant sort of, you know, checking on you and I know Alex has gone through this. I, we certainly have, you know, there, there are people in clubs can be very influential too. It's kind of like more of a mindset. Like I'm going to question, I'm going to, I'm going to not trust. I'm going to verify, you know, we went through it with the early marketing for give Bitcoin where, you know, some, some strong opinions came out about us using the word Timelock cause we used to, and we just said, give plus Timelock plus educate, but time has an actual function in Bitcoin.
Speaker 2 (00:54:00):
And so you can't use that word if you're talking about, about a Bitcoin product, unless you're actually using the time lock function. And some people were very vociferous about that now argued it for, you know, maybe an hour on Twitter. And then somebody suggested, why don't you just say escrow? And I was like, okay, cool. You know, or you can be obstinate and decide that you want to fight against Bitcoin and you know, essentially just wash out. And I just don't think that's, I have found, I found the toxic voice in the club voice and sort of the core Bitcoin or voice to be very reasonable on balance when it's sort of aggregated and you look at it and you're going to get in some fights and you're going to have some people that are a little chippy and people that get personal or whatever. But if you can keep your emotions out of it, it will guide you. The conscious of the conscience of Bitcoin will guide you. Cause it Springs from such a beautiful place.
Speaker 3 (00:54:55):
W with regard to the original question about running your own full note, I, I, I don't know if there's sort of like a moral imperative that we can issue as a community and say, you must run your own full node, or you're not being a good big corner or anything like that. I don't think that's comfortable. It what's always worked in Bitcoin or economically right now, there aren't that many economic incentives because people don't care that much about privacy. And that's really what we're talking about here. If you want privacy, you're going to have to run you
Speaker 2 (00:55:25):
Speaker 3 (00:55:27):
To be able to broadcast transactions.
Speaker 2 (00:55:32):
Speaker 3 (00:55:32):
Be able to look up your own transactions without anyone. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (00:55:37):
Speaker 3 (00:55:37):
Unfortunately, a lot, not a lot of people care that much about privacy. And that speaks to sort of like the society you live in there aren't that many consequences,
Speaker 2 (00:55:47):
At least not yet, but there will come a time when,
Speaker 3 (00:55:51):
When chain analysis companies are going to be able to track your spending and figure out that, Hey, you, you did this, this and this. And therefore you owe this much money to this government,
Speaker 2 (00:56:04):
An organization for this particular tax or something like that.
Speaker 3 (00:56:07):
At that point, I think everyone will be running because it doesn't cost that much. And from an economics perspective, you're essentially buying insurance to not be, you know, prosecuted on later on. So I think that's what needs to happen. Will that require some sort of like enormous privacy breach? Probably. I mean like blockchain.info, for example, it's a company that we mentioned here earlier, if they leak all of their logs and, and you know, which IP looked up, which address, and therefore you can link them very strongly and so on and you lose all your privacy. And at some point it leaks that your, you bought nipple rings or something, then you know, people aren't going to figure it out and okay, I need to run my own note. I need to have my own block Explorer. I need to, I need to do all of these things. That's when that's, when people are going to start running their own note. And, and unfortunately not until then, will it become as, as prominent?
Brady Swenson (00:57:13):
Awesome. Okay. So we have Robert Breedlove in the telegram chat room and he is asking a question that touches back on the topic that we already, you know, brought up in Jimmy really on, you know, kind of on the nose. He wants to talk about the, the world being reshaped by Bitcoin, a Bitcoin future. When we all have lower time preferences, it kind of bakes lower time preference into how we function as humans and therefore our society. So how do you think Ginny, how do economic incentives interact with morality?
Speaker 3 (00:57:46):
Hmm, well, they definitely interact quite quite a bit so that the Keynesian worldview is that you, you need to continuously have money sluicing through the economy, right? Velocity of money, money to constantly be in motion. Otherwise it's, it's not doing anything. The Austrian view is that storing of money, capital accumulation is what allows you to build better, better things for civilization and create more efficiency and create better goods and services. And so on that the Keynesian worldview essentially, or the Keynesian system, Fiat money, all of that induces higher time preference because you, you, you don't want money just sitting there. You have to spend, spend, spend yet consume, consume, consume. And what, what that ends up doing is getting people to have sort of lists like Yolo lifestyle, where they don't really care about 10 years into the future. They'd rather go and do something now.
Speaker 3 (00:58:42):
And you know, I mean, one of the things that you see very clearly is that, you know, birth rates have dropped significantly since the creation of the fed and it's, it's kind of, or at least since like 1971 birth rates have dropped insanely low. And this is one of, one of the indicators of having a pretty low time preference children. I can tell you for certain are one of the most low time preference things that you can do because they don't pay off for something like 30 years. So the fact that people are, are able to think more longterm when you have something that isn't sort of inflating away. And th this is the main mechanism by which Keynesian economists like for spending of money is through some level of inflation by money, sort of losing value over time. They, they force you to spend to consume by not having that.
Speaker 3 (00:59:38):
By having something like Bitcoin, you have a much lower time preference. You do things 20, 30, 40, even a hundred years, right? Like some, some of the most forward looking people have the lowest time preference. I remember learning about like Dennis A. Long time ago and, and how the city was built. The, the, the families that controlled Dennis, they had like 200 year plans to irrigate certain parts of the land around Venice so that they can have enough foreign land so that they can grow the city. And so on, they had like 200 year plans, right? Like this took forever. It was way past their lifetime, but they wanted to leave a legacy. And they did that because they had a low enough time preference where they could build it. And I think that's where, where Bitcoin really helps is in that sort of planning and creating good, creating a society that's lower time preference that isn't as impulsive, that isn't as susceptible to sales tactics, or propaganda and things like that, which we're all susceptible to right now because of
Speaker 4 (01:00:47):
Alum. I'll add to that. So it's funny. It reminds me of a, I saw Alan Farrington. He made a tweet earlier today saying I followed the investing topic and literally everything is about trading. I'm not sure that many people know what it investment actually is anymore. And I replied to the tweet. I said, it's transformed from a low time preference, allocation of resources into a high time preference, blind chase for yield via elaborate professional sounding, get rich, quick games and gambling. So it's, you know, we we've, we've forgotten what the concept of investment even means. And, you know, the, the idea. So, so not only does, you know, the messing with these base incentives, you know, inspire, or I guess incentivize behavior that you know, is more consumer and spend oriented it, then also incentivizes the larger end of town to continually chase yield. And, and, and I would argue that that's, that's just as big, if not a bigger problem, because then what you end up getting is this misallocation of resources, not just through malinvestment because of cheap money, but you also get it through this, this incessant chase to, to beat somebody else or to get a better yield or to, you know, to get a better return and, or to
Speaker 3 (01:02:20):
Right, because it's continuously decreased.
Speaker 4 (01:02:25):
Exactly. So, so you've got to basically rage like forward without a plan without thinking, you know, longterm without having any. So, you know, a lot of people, I love this idea that, you know, capitalism is about, you know, getting, getting efficiency out of, you know, so that you can create more productivity and then make the most use of the resources that you have. And you know, that this is where a lot of people get capitalism wrong is that they think that capitalism is about using up resources, but, you know, capitalism is about making the best use of resources. And, you know, your resources are part of your, of your capital. And again, in a, in an, in an environment where time is skewed, because incentives are skewed, you no longer treat the resources that you have as capital you treat it as a, as something to fucking burn through quickly as possible because the mechanism via which we measure prosperity or via which we measure successful via which we measure progress, I E money, you know, the, the fabric of society, we, you know, it's, it's falling in value in, it keeps fucking depreciating it, and it, and it drives all of these deranged behaviors that we sort of see incessant in society today.
Speaker 4 (01:03:55):
So, and this, this is also another thing like where, you know, I was on a podcast today with heavily on clown and Ben Francis. And, you know, we were, we were talking about how Bitcoin almost represents, you know, kind of chapter two of what happened to a quarter of a millennium and go with, you know, with the independence of America and the, and the creation of the, you know, of the constitution and the amendments and everything like that. It's, you know, back then we were, we were, you know, and when I say we, I mean, you know, I'm not bragging or anything like that, but let's just say a subset of humans went out to, to, to escape tyranny from the Monarch, from, from the monarchy at the time. And they, they took the time to sit down and actually think through a set of rules or a way to live.
Speaker 4 (01:04:53):
You know, they wrote treatises. They, they really defined what they wanted to do in this new society. And they set out to, to build, you know, a social contract, if you want to call it that, that, you know, people could abide by that they could opt into, you know, with, with some principals at, at its core, you know, and those principals involve, you know, Liberty, private property rights, you know, the freedom to speak for the right to protect yourself, et cetera, et cetera. And, and that was like some really profound thinking. Now, here we are, you know, quarter of a century later, and that shit's been co-opted, you know, by maniacs from every side of politics, you know, the, the, the state has become so large that it now, you know, not only it's, it's basically feeding on, you know, the, the constituents, which is, you know, us as it's as its participants, but, you know, Bitcoin's emerged as this new promised land because we don't have anywhere to go now, like we don't, we can't just go and, you know, sail out West, because now if we sail out West from, you know, California, we're going to end up over in China and I don't know how good that's going to go for Liberty slumps.
Speaker 4 (01:06:10):
So it's like, you know, we don't have a new land to find, but we've, we've been able to create this virtual promised land where, you know, there's a, there's a constitution called the white paper. It's got some, you know, rules that we can all decide to opt into or opt out of if you, if you don't want to play ball there, it's, you know, and the two things that it's really done well is that it's, you know, it's voluntary so you can opt in or opt out. And that's really such a powerful piece. If we want to have, you know, freedom is one of the principles or Liberty is one of the principles. And then what it's done is it's. So you've got, it's built private property rights into, into the, into the protocol itself. And those private property rights are not protected by the rule of law or an institution they're protected the mathematics, which is, you know, that transcends everything that we've had before.
Speaker 4 (01:07:11):
So, so to Rob's question, I think, you know, we, we can't, you know, quarter of a millennium ago, we're able to rethink society and build, you know, what was arguably the most prosperous, you know, social experiment in history, which is America from nothing. And it became, you know, the, the powerhouse of the world and still is the powerhouse of the world, because some people thought deeply and came up with some rules that really respected things like Liberty and private property rights at their core. And from there, you know, did this nation grew, and yes, it's devolved into madness now, but, you know, w we are now getting an opportunity to do this in digital realm. And with this, with this basis of, you know, economics at its core, you know, with a fair game, like a fair, fair playing field, we can, I think we can redesign society, you know, even better than what we did last time. And, and, and, you know, that gives me hope for the world. It's mine.
Speaker 3 (01:08:17):
It's interesting. Cause what you're talking about, I think is not a physical nature, but like sort of like a metaphysical nation of some kind, right? Like it's a, it's got its own rules and the digital is that a physical it's, it doesn't have a physical form. So that, that, you know, I, it, we could talk about singularity or whatever, but that it's, it's a whole new conceptually, you know, you, you have much stronger property rights because you can't, you know, physical things can be physically taking away benefits, local things you can't take away. So it's, it's a, it's much more conducive to individual Liberty, which, you know, if you think about all the possible crimes and, and immoral things that you can do to one another, it's a lot of it is actually just physical, right. Murdering or, you know, doing, you know, stealing from somebody, things like that. The, the fact that a lot of those things are naturally protected in that metaphysical realm means that there's this sort of, I dunno, metaphysical society that we're we're we're creating is, is more conducive to what we really need or want, or, or believe it's, it's closer to our values and it could be enforced without, you know, a strong central authority like you'd need in the physical world.
Speaker 4 (01:09:41):
Yeah. And it can be enforced without the same need for violence that an institution depends upon in order to enforce such rules. Right. So, so by and large, you know, we, we, we have tended as humans to institutionalize values and ethics, and then, you know, turn them into laws and then enforce those laws with the threat of violence. Whereas this, this enables us to, to, you know, to embody values and ethics through, through, through, like you said, a meta layer, which is really unique. And then it's going to be an interesting, you know, interesting to see how that then translates into how we behave on the physical realm, you know, particularly how the world transforms over the coming decades, you know, and particularly between now and the year 2100, you know, I mean like, Oh, I was listening to good podcasts today about complexity and localism.
Speaker 4 (01:10:43):
And, you know, the fact that when, when, when any system, you know, bloats particularly a complex system bloats too much, you know, from any sort of centralized point, it will crumble back down and become more decentralized again. Now the question is, does it happen through our own volition or will it happen, you know, through our own stupidity and ignorance. And, and at this point in time, like, it seems some of us are going to, you know, build more robust lives where we know we protect our wealth and, you know, we think more longterm, et cetera, et cetera, to our own volition. But the large majority of people are going to be subject to, you know, the, the, the inevitable collapsing in, on itself of these centralized institutions that are fundamentally unnatural. You know, they, they, they, on a, on a time span, that's longer than, you know, the next two presidential fucking runs.
Speaker 4 (01:11:46):
You know, these things don't work, you know, that they will have to decentralize through choice or by, you know, by natural law, by natural devolution. So it's going to be interesting to see then as that starts to happen, what Bitcoiners, particularly those who've who've understood why Bitcoin exists, et cetera, then do in the physical realm with this wealth that they've, they've amassed. And you know, that obviously I'm referring here to the, to the idea of, you know, whether it's citadels or private cities or whatever. I think that's going to be an interesting thing in the coming decades.
Speaker 2 (01:12:23):
You guys both touched on, on something I've been thinking about a little bit, which is how many arguments we've accepted as having, you know, two sides or multiple sides throughout, you know, human history or throughout our, our own education. And this could be like, you know, socialism versus capitalism or collectivism versus localism, or like all these different things, low times preference versus side time preference and the existence of Bitcoin and the spread of Bitcoin, you know, especially as we watch over the next decade or two, it just ends so many arguments in favor of whatever fits to Bitcoin, because that's just going to be the reality. And so, you know, carrying that forward and thinking about, you know, what is your, what is your community and who do you build with and what kind of, you know, network do you build and who do you spend your time with?
Speaker 2 (01:13:13):
Who do you work with? It actually makes all the sense in the world to be spending time with people who understand what the future is going to be like, which is going to be life in accordance with, you know, what naturally flows from Bitcoin as nation. So, you know, how you organize an economy and a society and your work and your own life and all of these different things. I think that is probably, you know, at the root of why a lot of Bitcoiners are just more comfortable talking to other Bitcoiners because it's supported by so many different viewpoints in different areas, whether it's economics or government or politics or economy or whatever, there's, there's a slant on it, or a view on it, or a reality that's enforced by, by the, the now existence of Bitcoin where it just doesn't really make sense to have those discussions anymore, because we kind of know how it's gonna work out
Brady Swenson (01:14:14):
Or how it's likely to work.
Speaker 3 (01:14:17):
Yeah. And that's a, that's exactly kind of what's happening. And even in crypto, there's this false dichotomy of Bitcoin versus everybody else or something like that. And, and it goes to this desire by people to be able to define their own morality or define their own reality and pretend that reality doesn't exist and that they can change things to fit whatever it is that they want. This is the mentality of a lot of people in Ethereum, Oh, we can make this new newer system and do whatever. And then you find out that reality, slap some part in the face when their latest EFI thing gets back. The, the thing about Bitcoin is that it is very truthful. They're there, there's a reality about it, and it's solid and you cannot subvert it, no matter how much you want to subvert it, or believe that it's not true, it is true.
Speaker 3 (01:15:10):
And this is, this is the wisdom behind number go up technology, right? Like the Melbourne continues to go up. You cannot deny that you could be Peter Schiff who heard about Bitcoin when it was like a dollar or something. But yeah, he can't deny that it's gone up 9,000 X since he first heard about it. And that's a reality that you have to deal with. If you don't deal with it, then you're not being honest with yourself. A lot of people like to think that they tend to find reality, however they want, because they don't want to be condemned for whatever immoral things that they're already doing. So in that sense, Bitcoin sort of gives you a grounding for a lot of other things. And it does end a lot of arguments, you know, give you a sense of what's what's to come, because it gives clarity into a lot of things that a lot of people have argued about.
Brady Swenson (01:16:07):
It's a fundamental change in society and for individuals and I, for 1:00 AM incredibly hopeful because of Bitcoin. And I've talked a lot on my podcast and elsewhere about how, you know, I ha I was rather hopeless before I found Bitcoin. I was, you know, I'd kind of given up to the idea that we were living in a world progressively more absent of privacy and without, you know, a moral compass in a lot of ways. And Bitcoin really affects both of those things. I love the fact that Bitcoin in group, you know, the mass distribution of cryptography will help, you know, I think increase the amount of privacy that we have in a digital world, but also because, you know, the fundamental properties of a sound money will alter us as individuals and society. Fundamentally. I just, I am much, much very encouraged by it and why I am. And many of us Bitcoiners are devoting, you know, all of our spare brain cycles and all of our spare moments and, you know, trying to find
Speaker 4 (01:17:10):
A way to work full time in Bitcoin. It's inspires its own marketing team developer team, and well, you know, like I guess evangelists, right?
Speaker 3 (01:17:21):
I can, I can I think about that because I did write a tweet a while ago that said, think about how depressing this whole situation would be without their quite right. Like we've been locked out forever, right. And, and they're, you know, riots going on or looting and protests and, you know, all sorts of things going on all over the world in a sense, like all those people that are angry that are out in the, in the streets protesting and stuff like that to a degree, I understand it because if you didn't have something like Bitcoin to give you at least a little bit of hope that things could improve. Yeah. I would be angry. I would, I would be out there protesting, trying to figure out who the hell to blame or all of this mess that we're in. And yet, you know, like, because there is something that there's a kernel of something it's, let's, let's not fool ourselves, Bitcoin isn't that big yet, but once it gets, you know, but we could see the light at the end of the tunnel, right?
Speaker 3 (01:18:21):
Like there is hope at the end of this, there is economic salvation. If you will, for the entire world, after, you know, 50 years of pure Fiat currency all around the world, there is something that can change. And that, that's a very good thing. And man, it, would it be a really depressing time right now, if you were stuck at home, you know, having to go through choir and team, seeing all the protests, seeing all the bad news on TV with no sports to make you happy, you know, like having all like how depressing you have David Day trader global for that. So at least there's there's bread and circus
Speaker 4 (01:19:04):
Out there. And I think that's what we're seeing people do is just Robin hood, you know, waiting to get racked. But yeah, we have something better, which is something in the, in the definite optimist quadrant, not just entertain myself quadrant, you know, I was just going to say that I think Jimmy took the words out of my mouth, what I was going to say, literally often Brady mentioned his thing is like, yeah, I would be quite pessimistic. And I I'm, I'm an energetic kind of guy as most people, you know, kind of know already. So, you know, I, I, I, I shudder to think where a lot of that energy would go had I not found, you know, coin as, as someone to really channel that energy. And, you know, quite frankly, that, you know, that, that frustration that I have with, I guess, you know, the derangement syndrome for the simulation that we seem to be living in the lack of
Speaker 2 (01:20:08):
A better term. Not that I believe in a simulation, but let somatically proven dude. No, sir.
Brady Swenson (01:20:16):
Oh man. All right. So let's apply this discussion that we've been having, which is kind of like, you know, general ideas to our specific situation right now. How does, you know, Jimmy's already talking about how it, you know, it gives us a source of hope in this particular time, which is pretty dire, how does it affect the macroeconomic situation we're in and you know, how the next decade or so unfolds in your opinion, or you want to take this one first?
Speaker 2 (01:20:51):
So, I mean, I guess we could go, we could go pretty like 30,000 feet on this and just talk about kind of this moment in history and kind of what's sparking off here. And, you know, I think we've talked before on this show is have lots of people on other shows about, you know, is, is there an opportunity to get out of these debt super cycles that, you know, Ray Dalia might talk about? You know, it seems fairly clear in the, in the sense of, you know, the, the fourth turning framework of looking at things that it certainly seems like that's coming and that, you know, whether it's this bubble that really just bursts and deflates all this hilarious, you know, Fiat facade, but the global governments have sprung on us or the next one, which would probably be in another five years or so, you know, something's gotta give here. And what we're going to see give is, is the world order that has existed since the end of world war II. And that has sort of accelerated wildly since 1971. And then, you know, in geopolitical terms, since the collapse of the Soviet union in like 89. So I think that's sort of, what's given rise to the, the massive acceleration on this path. That's just ended in this hilarity that we've seen since the GFC one in, in 2008, 2009.
Speaker 2 (01:22:13):
So I think really, you know, as far as the transition, what we're looking at is like, will it be hyper Bitcoin visitation, gorgeous, soft landing Bitcoin visitation, but what I'm almost more interested in thinking about, and I want to spend a lot more time thinking about this is what specifically is likely to change. And this comes straight out of the last segment that we were just talking about in each area, whether it's, you know, you know, politics or society or technology or human relationships, or the way we organize cities or countries or whatever, what are the scenarios that are likely to play out in a Bitcoin ice world where, you know, the money printing is taken away from the government. I spent a lot of time thinking about this in another area, just, you know, driverless cars, like what, what changes for real estate, what changes for, you know, do excerpts explode because you
Speaker 3 (01:23:06):
Can essentially have a rolling office and you can get a couple of extra hours of sleep if you're way out in the desert and you're driving into LA without having to be awake, you know, and you don't care about leaving at three 30 or four in the morning and going to the office, you know, so similarly what changes in a Bitcoin ice world? I think that's going to be really important. And I think the, you know, the best politicians and the best leaders and the best entrepreneurs, the best heads of household and your best friends are going to be the people that figure that out. You know, the soonest and take action toward, you know, skate where the puck is going. Basically, I I've thought about that question, particularly with respect to their corner, come to the conclusion that things will be a lot smaller just right now, every, every company is gigantic in March part because they need to scale up in order to get a lot of the capital on effects of newly printed money.
Speaker 3 (01:24:06):
They, this is why VCs only fund unit or they, they, they're pushing all ways to create unicorns because you, you don't get a lot of the benefits until you're at least a billion dollars. You're worth a billion dollars. Then, then you have access to all of these things that, you know, large companies have. And you're almost at the point where you're too big to fail. You get bailouts, you get, you know, tax breaks on all this other stuff. But more importantly, I think I it's, it's more natural for human beings to be in smaller groups. And this is, there's a lot of evidence with, you know, neuroscience and things like that. You can really only know about 150 people. This is what they call Dunbar's number and companies that go past that point of 150 people ourselves based on having some serious problems on, especially with respect to management.
Speaker 3 (01:24:58):
Cause it's hard to know what everyone is doing. There's there tends to be a lot of Deadwood and so on. So I think companies become smaller countries. I think also eventually become smaller because there there's an enormous amount of inefficiency that's being propped up by Fiat money, right? There's a lot of rent seekers. There's a lot of people that aren't doing much in a lot of governments, but they're propped up because Fiat money can, you know, buy up the bonds that these governments create. And, you know, they're the one there's a last resort or whatever. So it's, and as things get smaller, you get actually a lot more personalization and localization, a lot more efficiency, a lot more things that people want a lot better quality, things like that. And you get micro States, maybe you get, you know, sort of like the city States of yesteryear, you know, back when Europe was off the gold standard, there were a lot more smaller city States and even bigger countries.
Speaker 3 (01:25:55):
It was really more smaller States that nominally pay taxes to the King, but not quite as much as we do now. So I suspect that things will get a lot smaller and that's, that's something that I look forward to now, how's that transition going to happen? I don't know, but I mean, I can't, I can't imagine the U S government giving up its dollar hegemony, you know, just right away willingly or whatever, but, you know, as Bitcoin gains in prominence, this is something that's coming. I don't know if it's in the next 10 years or the next hundred, but it will happen. And, and like planning for that world, a world where, you know, like banks aren't as important politicians aren't as important where, you know, you know, VCs aren't as important things like that. It's, it's kind of a crazy world to think about, but it, it's not that different than say the world was like a hundred years ago. So I looked to the wild West era as sort of like an indicator of where we're coming to head, but, you know, in a more modern,
Speaker 4 (01:27:02):
I like that. I like how the, the, the idea that, I mean, I feel like society, you know, ebbs and flows anyway, like human beings there, there's a, there's a really good model. And I, and I'm writing an article now, which is, you know, Bitcoin through the, through the eyes of spiral dynamics. And there was a, there was a really good philosopher slash psychologist called dr. Clare graves who came up with a model called spiral dynamics. And he talks about how, you know, spiral dynamics is, is, is a view of the, the mimetic evolution of, of the way people, you know, operate at an individual level and at a, at a societal level and, and the values that come at each at each level. And, you know, it's still, it's sort of starts off as beige, which is, you know, survival, you know, where, where the, you know, it's, it's egocentric, it's about means about, you know, literally, you know, existing and surviving.
Speaker 4 (01:28:07):
And that's sort of where, you know, all human beings start and when we're born as infants, new sort of, we, we grow into, you know, the, the purple level, which is, is a little bit more about weeds. It's, it's tribal. And, you know, we, we evolve into thinking more about a group and, and you sort of see this evolution in society and both and kids as they grow up, as they start to realize, it's not just about them, you know, they have a brother or sister or, you know, that there's parents, et cetera, where they start to realize that there's other entities outside of them. And then, you know, we, we then evolve, we pendulum back into a more egocentric model of, of, you know, the red color, which is, you know, power God, you know, and you kind of see this embodied in people like, you know, the, the Gangas con's of the world, you know, the, you know, the, the, the warrior King or the word of God.
Speaker 4 (01:28:58):
And, and that sort of, you know, is the, the kind person that, you know, kind of elevates outside of, you know, the purple mentality. And, you know, the, the essence of the energy is, you know, you know, leadership, but then it, it, how can I say, you know, the there's a, all of these layers are really important, you know, a bit before I go into the rest of them, but they, they, they, as with anything in life and in the world, they come with an important essence that we need to integrate kind of like where Peterson talks about when he talks about the shadow, but alongside, you know, vices and as with anything that's virtues and vices, right? So, you know, red was the evolution beyond purple, then, you know, we sort of society and, you know, people evolve into them, the next layer, which is blue and is kind of personified through, you know, values of systems and processes and procedures and rules and laws and all this sort of stuff.
Speaker 4 (01:29:59):
And you sort of see society kind of moved into that. And, you know, social constructs that are very blue are things like, you know, whether it's religion or whether it's, you know, the police, whether it's, you know, the, the nation state or whatever, it's, it's, you know, it creates a system to function within. And then, you know, you see society and people, you know, kind of evolve into the next value set, which, you know, is characterized by the color orange in this model. And orange is a little bit more, you know, it's, it's science, eats, achievement oriented, you know, entrepreneurial it's about flares, about breaking the rules, but you see a pendulum again, to, to being in a more individual centric. And then, you know, the, the next evolution in this sort of first phase. So this first phase talks about, you know, these six levels of memetic, social, and individual values of Ellucian.
Speaker 4 (01:30:49):
You know, the six level is this, you know, idea of green and the idea, you know, you know, people are connected and, you know, we're know it's all about we, and, you know, the, you kind of see this embodied in kind of like the movement of the sixties, you know, the hippies and all this sort of stuff. And, you know, and they all have their place. One of the mistakes people make is that, you know, that particularly in societies that have gone through and grown through each of these levels is that, you know, someone born, you know, in the modern age is generally born into relatively orange or shul greenish type society. And they think that they view the world through that value lens. And they think that their valued hierarchy is right. You know, this is the right way to do it, and everything else is fucking wrong.
Speaker 4 (01:31:37):
And what they don't realize is that, you know, to be a whole human and to be a functional group of human beings, you know, we need to somehow have elements of each of these things. And where I see Bitcoin is it's, it, it kind of takes a leap into the, into the next realm, beyond these six levels, which is characterize through yellow and turquoise. And yellow is really the understanding that each layer has its place in the ability to then flow or flex flow between all of these States and apply the appropriate values at the appropriate time for the right reasons. So it's a much more objective kind of view. So, you know, I like when I first, I used to study a lot of psychology when I was younger and, you know, I did all the whole NLP and all that sort of stuff.
Speaker 4 (01:32:25):
I was like the youngest NLP practitioner in Australia and all of this shit. So I did all that stuff, but, you know, doing that in the early days, I, you know, I spent some time going through this Clare graves model and I've never, in my life seen something that enabled society to sort of become a little bit more yellow, become more integrated in its, in its ability to allow people to, to, to, to adopt the best of each, you know, kind of, yeah, I've almost forgotten the original question from your Brady, but just, I think of something to do with macro, but that's kind of like a really large viewpoint from, from a, from a evolutionary psychology perspective of, you know, what Bitcoin may enable. I encourage everyone to look at some eclair Greg's work. I think it, it really allows you to sort of view behavior through, you know, value structures, you know, for people, you know, on both an individual and on a, on a social level. So it's a, it's a really interesting model. And I think, I mean, like I said, I'm going to write about it, but I think it's, you know, Bitcoin for the first time enables something like this to, to evolve beyond where we've been stuck at, I think for a long time now.
Speaker 4 (01:33:55):
All right, guys, thank you so much. This was a fantastic wide ranging conversation. I love this format because we get a couple of great big wins together. The brains interacts, we end up like going all over the place. I think we touched a lot of deep, important topics. We had a lot of fun in the middle there as well. So I appreciate your time guys. Thanks Alex. Really? Thanks, Jenna. Yeah, man. Thank you, Jimmy. Thanks for having me closing thoughts. I'm kidding. I was going to say something stupid about picking up Shakespeare, but nothing.
Speaker 3 (01:34:32):
I think you picked them all up. Bitcoin. I actually, that would be really fun to query like doing a Bitcoin pickup thing.
Speaker 4 (01:34:47):
Speaker 3 (01:34:47):
Yeah. Well, we're thinking of sending people out and so you're not feeling lonely and like, so people would actually see that there's something going on with like hire an
Speaker 2 (01:34:58):
Actor to stand there in a giant Swan mascot. So he's like seven or eight feet tall so that whoever's doing the pickup at least feels like they have a wing man, literally,
Speaker 5 (01:35:08):
But it was just like,
Speaker 2 (01:35:10):
You should have a contest. See how many, like, if you could get them to actually buy Bitcoins, that's counted as a win. And then like, if you could do 10, then you get like, I don't know. I love it. That's like your, your prize. And then, you know, I don't, I don't know if it makes sense, but I mean, that, that is exactly like just, you know, I've got my Swan Forrest shirt on, which is our, you know, referrals, army. And we have people that make referrals to Swan and they go out and we basically try to arm them with memes and slide decks to go out into the world and like pitch to their friends or go to a local, you know, if they're in college, Leo Strauss to do it. Cause I would love to watch him.
Speaker 5 (01:35:51):
Well, he's a modeler. He's been, he's been huddling for a
Speaker 2 (01:35:54):
Long time. I want him to go and try to Mark it that way and see, see how successful he is. He uses mass media. He'll write about a million stone or something like that as he did a couple of years ago. But yeah, he doesn't have to do hand to hand combat anymore. It's just lessons come to him. But yeah, I think, I think it's, it's part of what, you know, companies like Alex's and ours, you have to build a community of people that are going to go out and, and spread Bitcoin knowledge by word of mouth. And that is the kind of factory that we try to build and to enable people to go out and, and be better talking to their uncle and their cousin and their friend and their coworker about Bitcoin and teaching people how to, how to talk about this.
Speaker 2 (01:36:45):
And I think Alex nailed it. There is no silver bullet. You've got to really tailor it to the audience that you have, but you need enough arrows in your quiver so that one of them will actually hit the target and get them to start down the rabbit hole. And then it really is a personal journey. And we all know that no amount of intelligence, you know, spewing from anyone was going to get you to go down the rabbit hole until you actually started wanting to learn for yourself. So you're just trying to spark that in the people that you care about. Yeah. It's interesting. I read a book on propaganda a while back Ashoka law. He wrote a book on a book, literally named propaganda. One of the things I learned from is that propaganda isn't about brainwashing people as, as popular as we perceive that the main thing that you need to get people to do is to take action. Even if it's a, if it's a very small step, it tends to make everything else happen on itself. And, and this is absolutely true of Bitcoin too. It's one thing, if you just give somebody Bitcoin, they don't really care about it cause they didn't think they actually, but if they go and buy Bitcoin, then it changes everything. And that's where like, if you, if you can
Speaker 3 (01:37:56):
Get that tiny stack, then they're down that rabbit hole right away. Whereas, you know, if you, if you don't have that, like actions that you've taken, then, then it's a much harder journey. It's a lot more, it's a much longer journey. It's a lot harder to come out on the right end and so on. So something to think, think about and figure out how to Mark it on.
Brady Swenson (01:38:23):
That's what we're here doing, man. That's where, that's what we're doing. Literally define the
Speaker 3 (01:38:33):
Brady Swenson (01:38:34):
Scaling the orange billing one person at a time and get that network effect working for us. It's going to be fascinating to watch guys really proud to be, you know, alongside you all in the trenches, trying to red pill, everyone as many as possible. Alright, orange pill. Thank you. All right, we'll wrap it up there. This was fantastic. Thanks again guys. If you are watching on YouTube or Twitter, you can subscribe to the podcast. We publish these as audio later, usually the sameDay@swansignalpodcast.com. We had probably the most active chat room of any session to date in telegram t.me/swan signal. It was a ton of fun. You know, we all had good dozen people really going at it in the chat room, a lot of fun. So join that and you can ask questions of our guests and real time and have a lot of fun joining the conversation. Alright, that's it. Take care of him. Thanks.
Speaker 6 (01:39:35):
Okay. Thank you. This song's done. SWAT is done.
Brady Swenson (01:39:52):
Thanks to Jimmy and Alex for joining us on Twitter. You can follow Jimmy at Jimmy song at J I M M Y S O N G and Alex at Alex [inaudible]. That's a L E K S S V E T S K I. Corey is at Corey [inaudible] K L I P P S T E N and myself at citizen Bitcoin on behalf of the Swan team. Thanks for joining us. We hope you enjoyed this episode of the Swan signal podcast. You can join us live next time. If you're able jump into our Swan signal, telegram chat room at t.me/swan signal, and you can follow along live. We have a lively crew there that chats during our conversation and in between each episode, all during the week, you can also watch, like I said, at the top on firstname.lastname@example.org. The best way to accumulate Bitcoin.
Speaker 6 (01:40:55):
That's it for this week. Thanks for joining us. [inaudible].